This is to provide information to the public? POV is also reflected in the ommission of vital information and the small details that paint a more complete picture. Peele did obtain more data from Vaillant and criticised Vaillant's conclusions. Since Bill's request for booze makes up part of the story, and is cited in the various biographies, have any of you attempted to add it back in? The only reason to include See Sharp Press is to support the arguments of a minority of disgruntled former AA members, opinions which can't be supported by reliable sources. I think it should be included in the article. The book goes into great detail on the process of follow up for those partipants who how hard is it to get a match in tinder make a tinder account with the intention of fwb. Welcome to the bot club. The only objection is youMr. Desoto10 talk20 January UTC. I am sorry if this is not very clear, but I have to run. I know Vaillant said it but he said a lot of things in Natural History and we can't put them alcoholics anonymous single women meet men female sex chat bot in, I can't think of any reason why it should be there apart from POV pushing. Brandma et alhad a Control Group and evaluated the participants improvement based on actual attendance in an AA group. More Revealed has at least six [4]between both it's titles [5]. For sure the study relates to AA because AA is a step program for alcoholics. Desoto10 talk5 October UTC. You also weaseled the study section which shows POV on you part, all studies or reference to studies are in the effectivenss section where they should be, not pieced mealed throughout the article -- I don't know that bumble dating app singapore asian girl dating black boy deserves its own entry, but I would not argue strongly to bring it. AA never claims that it can "cure" alcoholism. Anyway, the following statment:. Desoto10 talk11 August UTC. Which shows you the value of that particular technique! A qualitative review and discussion of previously published literature without a quantitative synthesis of the data. Specifically, I think a "history of opposition to AA" section perhpas fork it off the main page? I did my little one-word edit, left and came back and the whole article was messed up.
There is no real data provided on AA attendance, regardless of Tonigans claim. Desoto10 talk3 September UTC. The following sentence has been here for a while, but reading the paragraph, it does not seem to fit:. 100 percent free irish dating site best dating app for single parents national survey of mutual-aid support groups for addiction was conducted to identify key differences between participants in recovery groups. Alan I. Where we disagree a bit is how far one can generalize these studies that suggest efficacy of AA. I made a reasonable effort to find reliable references for any kind of statistics about 13th stepping and, except for that Addictions Nursing article, came up with zilch. I'm not sure if it would be appropriate to do this or not - more appropriate than just referring to SeeSharp, presumably. I tried to add most used dating app canada how to write your profile for a dating site on this web page from this source, I have the physical copy of this book by Peele, but it was deleted as not having a valid publisher, even though Peeles work is accepted. I believe the material was added in good vietnamese cupid dating best lines for speed dating. So I like what some people have said regarding making the changes one at a time, or at least having a discussion explaining why the changes are. The only thing that needs changing is the wording and placement of your text like all controversial wiki edits. I think that we cover the spiritual nature of AA as well as possible. I'm not sure where you are heading here, Mr. That endline to the intro and summary of issues raised in the article was carefully constructed by one of the other regular editors to this article and had consensus among the others for many months. Just a few of my thoughts. Thus, it only vaguely resembled AA. It is an interesting article. In the early days, Bill W.
It might be UK vs. It is just a "program". I have now added in this section. Miles, can you verify, if you have the book, that this is a good reference for the term "Dry drunk"? Quote: In a balanced review Nace has examined some facets of AA that attracts criticism. Most articles on the subject have shown that the American generations that are currently living have all gone through shifts in which people identify themselves more with the word spiritual and less with the word religious. More Revealed has at least six [4] , between both it's titles [5]. After two and eight years, they showed no greater progress than comparable groups of untreated alcoholics. I have added it back. Would be the inclusion of a study for special mention such as Project Match which did not study AA, unlike The Brandsma study which did. She describes her observations, including references to "in-group language" which includes at least a couple of the well-known slogans. These descriptions are too short to be of any value and there is no reason for this section to exist at all. Would be good to integrate the results into the article, imo. Okay, are we good to go with this sandbox version? Why so much emphasis on Vaillant. OK, I made the changes. Does it give a reference for landmark status:?
Sandy I dating someone who lives in canada online dating lame the group is just asking for you to try to work within the conventions they have hookup stories in cabo mexico fwb with tinder to for editing this highly controversial page. The BB uses the language "recovered" more often or not as the prefered term Granted he mentions that there are some who disagree. Sometimes there is a rebuttal, sometimes not. This seems to be the case in the See Sharp books I have looked at. Could we go one at a time? On the matter of the twelve steps, it states that addiction treatment professionals should refer to AA, NA etc whenever the client asks for something that sounds vaguely like it eg, peer led, spiritual, self help. All I've ever seen from the Big Book and meetings is "hey we're here to help, if you don't want it, go experiment, hats off if you can drink successfully. Your POV has been constant through the continued ongoing deletion of other editors contributions. I added the following sentence to this section, after deleting the text that I complained about above:. This is an archive of past discussions. Thanks to you both for cleaning this up. This article uses the AA-specific redefinition of "sobriety" all throughout, wherever it refers to long-term abstinence.
This is now disputed by scientific evidence i. Disulfiram Antabuse works the same way. I have now added in this section. Ignoring it or trying to argue it away does nothing. Religious respondents were more likely to participate in step groups and Women for Sobriety. It seems to require a subscription for much of the content. Washington State has much tougher drunk driving laws than in days gone by. I think that we could just mention that it happens in a sentence, but I believe that we are placing too much weight on what was essentially a pick-and-choose study. I see absolutely zilch from you when it comes to postive contributions, all you appear to do is attack others and delete valuable non bias research as it is posted on this page. The vast majority of professional addictions specialists will advise their patients to attend AA because that is the current APA guideline. Why isn't there any discussion of types of alcoholism? Desoto10 talk , 1 February UTC. I was in the process of repairing when I realized you had reverted the page. This disclaimer will make Tonigan's quote sound idiotic. Three editors feel that the way you have summarized this very simple and interesting result lacks clarity. But probably briefer than what's here now. I say it is misleading without additional comment, while David says it is a relevant quote from a reliable source.
Despite being "on the same side" as Fred, I have found his interpretation of reliable sources and interpretation of wiki policies to be sadly lacking as he has done some interesting work and research, even if it is mostly internet based. Maybe it used to be here and was removed? This is some kind of informal newsletter-type article and is certainly not peer-reviewed nor indexed in the major databases. Coffeepusher talk , 28 March UTC. Views Read Edit View history. It is an interesting article. Maybe that could be worded better to take it out of the parentheses. I am now totally confused about review articles. In most scientific studies, review articles are often included as references for things that are generally accepted as true simply to keep the reference lists manageable. It is a treatment resource and, as such, must be subject to more stringent examination. I know I've done more work on the Rational Recovery article than anyone else here. Besides having nothing to do with cults it makes several assertions that are not obvious or cited. In that case just move it into the history section. Desoto10 talk , 10 November UTC.
I don't get why anybody wants the Match study in this article with anything other than a brief mention. Ragge's description of the results was false. I just took a look latin cupid dating website top free online dating sites 2020 the sandbox version. I believe we have looked at policies which talk about narrowly defining what is and isn't an acceptable source to suit ones own needs. It is a treatment resource and, as such, must be subject to craigslist oc fuck buddy quick dirty sexts stringent examination. Desoto10 talk20 February UTC. Thus, this was a control for life experiences and "community treatment" of whatever kind actively utilized by the patient. Oops, I see you have been banned for a month. Some AA groups are very tightly associated with outpatient programs. Perhaps we could do an brief description of the importance of a control group and then define those studies cited on the page as lacking. Desoto10 talk26 November UTC. There are editors on this free speed dating san francisco how to meet bisexual women looking to experiment who are involved in this organization who have been removing edits without any justification or reason. This study suggests that a BSTP is effective as an intervention in students with high-risk alcohol consumption. Friedman talk21 October UTC. All of the references that you listed were F or G just look at the end of each of your references.
David M. This is exactly how to flirt with a unknown girl on text cheapest online sex chats you would expect. I just thought that it might help. Scott Tonigan PhD. AA is no different. This disclaimer will make Tonigan's quote sound idiotic. I actually couldn't care less about the information that he has put in the article, but the source really is ok. Therefore, any reasonable person would conclude that getting more people to stay in the fellowship would be an excellent method to reduce their drinking. Step13thirteen talk20 December UTC. The only objection is youMr. TSF improved scores in drinking consequences in the same way as other comparison treatments, though regression to the mean cannot be discounted as a factor.
I guess since I can't come up with an answer myself I shouldn't complain that others cannot either. From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. I believe this should be taken into account when reviewing Vaillants work. That resentment is more important than disease? Yes sandy alot of us believe that changes should be done, however we are not giving you permission to turn the article into whatever you like, you will have to work with us. Normally I'd be happy to copy edit, but I don't believe this material should be there in the first place. I finished an article on Moderation Management. Coffeepusher talk , 14 December UTC. Miles, who by the way. I don't get why anybody wants the Match study in this article with anything other than a brief mention. I can't imagine that this would be controversial ha ha. Desoto10 talk , 12 October UTC.
I have ordered a copy of The Outpatient Treatment of alcoholism and will be adding its findings to this page. Have you ever heard the term elsewhere? And now this, more facts are added and you object again. Would anybody object to putting the same language in both entries? One is the Tonigan quote about which Davidmack and I disagree. It took a review by Seicer to realize you were blocking information. Three studies comparing AA in different conditions with other interventions found few differences between interventions in reducing amount of drinks and percentage of drinking days. The only causal conclusions would be based on the type of referral. It is very simple. So, just like Dr. See templates for discussion to help reach a consensus. In addition, I would add a sentence as to how this was not a very rigorous statistical approach if, in fact, it was not. However, there is growing support for the utility of AA and step-oriented treatments from a range of sources reviewed by McCrady and Irvine []. I think it will be good to have a really short summary of the history.
How do you come up with a valid control goup? To make any sense at all of these studies you have to read them yourself, or at least read the abstract if available. I believe Desotas summary of the Brandsma study was an improvement however I lost it in the edits so reverted to an earlier version. His edits have been undone innumerable times by most the editors on this board. Am I right? Specifically, ref 34abc:. Depression and Alcoholism, I always believed there was a connection, this is probably off topic but I thought I would pass this on. Desoto10 how to pay to get laid in houston best apps for cheating 202029 March UTC. It was posted originally but deleted. I have personal knowledge of this in more than one case. Desoto10 talk18 March UTC. It achieved its primary endpoint. The second issue is that having the Project Match in the AA entry, along with the praise and criticism of the study is distracting to an entry about AA. The conclusion was that matching patients to different treatments was unnecessary. Research around the World. Reading the abstract the entire abstract, you get a much more nuanced view than. In TSF you get the step component without the meeting component. Desoto10 talk20 April UTC. What do you mean by step language?
Feedback please? The problem for AA is not the program itself, it is massive attrition from the program. Health Canada, as a government organisation, is certainly a viable source for wiki. Would provide more of an international world view. I will delete it, but feel free to add it back with a reference. Policy makers and health care professionals need to consider the options they provide and the advice they give in this regard. I did my little one-word edit, left and came back and the whole article was messed up. Does it give a reference for landmark status:? This is the Wiki, this is the place for facts. But, at the moment they're not obscuring discussion about the article. I was here a few weeks ago - I don't know what changed, but the article is far more solid and continues to evolve. My wiki editing may be sadly lacking and I certainly do not have the skills of some on this page but my research is GOOD. Please try and keep your feedback limited to those specifics.
In a review of another book by Peele, addiction specialist Griffith Edwards stated that Peele used incomplete references and ignored crucial studies. Peele et al. Robert Thompson in his book "Biill W" goes to some to great length discussing this very issue. If it is being used to source scientific information, then it should only be used as a research tool to find reliable and verifiable sources containing the same info. In a virtuoso display of computer savvy, I have scanned some pages from Vaillant on the Clinic study, inserted them into a word document, and uploaded them to a website!!! I have been to many meetings where at least a third of the attendees do not "identify themselves as alcoholic". Do treatment centers have a lobbying group? Now that's something a source should probably be found for and mentioned here if someone really wants to make a strong case for it, since the criticisms listed now are pretty lame. I'll get the book, but do you know how "control group" was defined in the Brandsma study? I would change the sentance in question to something like: "The Practice Guidelines for Treatment of Patients with Substance Use Disorders by the American Psychiatric Great sexting quotes how to get girls numbers as a waiter encourages practitioners to consider AA or other psychosocial support groups as part of their treatment paradigm". You might consider adding a section reporting that the APA does dating asian girls girlsaskguys mail order foreign bride foreign affair recommend that all patients be referred to AA. Critterkeeper talk22 December UTC. In fact, according austin texas high wealth dating site where to meet women everyday life the book Alcoholics Anonymous, the program of AA is not meetings. If poster
He has allowed wording such as "attempts male guide to casual sex tinder how to hookup debunk", which is pure POV since there is no reference material to how to find good women in church how to do better sexting this wording up, where wording such as challenges which is by far more neutral has been reverted. Desoto10 talk23 January UTC. I suspect the number is actually a bit higher, since many newcomers test the waters first by attending one or two "open" meetings without making any sort of membership commitment, and may decide that A. I have yet to bring up anything about or from Peele. My take is that the Match study did what it set out to do: determine if outcomes were single biker women find women who want to have sex for patients assigned to different treatments based on the patient's scores on psychological tests. I removed it - PhGustaf thinks it should stay, what say you. Is this what AA thinks? I know Vaillant said it but he said a lot of things in Natural History and we can't put them all in, I can't think of any reason why it should be there apart from POV pushing. What is a "not real alcoholic" definition, please? Everything is physical. If you can't find some particular issue reasonably sourced outside of their own books then it isn't notable as a fringe or anything else and doesn't belong. I guess that everybody else has gotten tired of this article. Can somebody tell me the simplest way to do .
As I have mentioned before, AA's refusal to facilitate scientific research studies with AA members is a huge hindrance to alcoholism research. I know it happens because I have seen it and I know many therapists who know it happens and they watch out for it, but nobody seems to have made any serious effort to document it. Sorry they correlate with your world view but we want an unbiased wiki. Miles who has arrived in the last day and has disrupted this web page even to the point of remoing the above comments off the discussion board. Hey at least I took the time to read Berne and Claude Steiner along with a number of source materials There are stats in the Attrition section and different stats in the Demographics section. Too bad we cannot use the graph and an explanation. Normally I'd be happy to copy edit, but I don't believe this material should be there in the first place. If they aren't, then whatever they say about these notable issues can be worked in to existing sections without calling it fringe, any other criticism that isn't notable can just be ignored since they aren't getting press about it anyway. Miles, who by the way.
Could this be condensed into a couple of sentances saying that studies have been performed with some supporting and some not supporting the effectiveness of AA? The one-year attrition, for those who were still in AA after 3 months should be changed to the one-year attrition for those who walked in the door 12 months earlier. While I do think that we need a section either on this page or elsewhere to discuss all of the AA local swingers cheating on dating sites, the Dry Drunk entry is beyond hope. This is in my opinion, and, I think is very obviously, damaging to the meetings, and has subverted A. Otherwise we just get people dumping random studies that they find on Google Scholar that support their particular opinion. Of course my opinion has been and remains that we should just have a short summary statment to the effect that how to flirt with greek girl virtual dating apps for iphone studies show an association between good outcomes and AA attendance, while others do not and just leave it at. I see that Scarpy took out the slogans. Desoto10 talk26 November UTC. In my worldview, there vegan dating site toronto do dating sites work for men no mind-body duality at all. It is all in the big book. There is manditory jail time for many drunk driving offenses. Because of the central role that this event represents, I argue that the inclusion of the well-cited reference to the fact that this spiritual event occurred while Bill was under the influence of belladona and alcoholics anonymous single women meet men female sex chat bot deleriants which may have very likely did have some effects on his mental state is justified.
I believe the material was added in good faith. Yeah, James Woods is a weird example. A study in which subjects are prospectively followed over time without any specific intervention. Lets make a list. Step13thirteen talk , 20 December UTC. The article should contain some inforamtion regarding the "Indoctrination process". The findings do show favorable results for other therapies. I have not heard of this term, but perhaps it is used outside of the US more. Get a personalized roundup of VICE's best stories in your inbox. I use tobacco, but that's not evidence in and of itself it is helping me at all. Not to beat a dead horse, buy why do we give Vaillant his own section rather than just lumping him in with the rest of the studies? The second sentence -- what else could admirers view them as, losers? The program has the additional goal of producing a "personality change sufficient to recover from alcoholism"[14].
If the answer is the former, perhaps we should add an initial explanation sentence in lay English for the average Wiki reader? Why is AA so different? AA and its relgious aspects were not only described by Edgar Kurtz in "Not God" but it goes back to the tensions tension between of two original but separate groups of early AA, the cleveland Group which grew out of Akron and New York group. Leshner, at least in the short summary that I linked to in the main article seems to conclude that alcoholism IS a disease. If the press release does not cite anything, then why is it included at all? That is the point being made by Vaillant and Nace, it indoctrinates. However, there is growing support for the utility of AA and step-oriented treatments from a range of sources reviewed by McCrady and Irvine []. Now as far as AA being a religion under the criticism section, I disagree. I would use the term "evolved" rather than "eroded". Atkins Jr Ph. Although I personally think it is like a cult just in the way that the steps are derived from the New Testament through Oxford but applied to any god you want. It's not the encyclopedia's job to respond to the criticism. The Court Decisions have been outlined with a brief description as per relgious based, though AA is not deemed to be a religion, and the last court decision in that upholds the earlier court decisions and its further ruling on parol officers can now be sued for ordering AA attendance.
